WEBVTT

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Okay, can everyone hear me?

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I can hear you loud and clear.

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Wonderful.

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Good afternoon. Thanks for joining us,

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especially on this beautiful day.

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I'm going to start the presentation and Rob ...

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Jacobson is going to pick up about a third of the way in.

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Today we're going to talk about the Hinkson Creek ...

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science strategy and the document.

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And Rob added this in.

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I think this was a good addition.

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And Rob, thank you for all your edits.

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Much appreciated.

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The purpose of the document is stated up front here.

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And basically this is a summary of the current ...

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knowledge of Hinkson Creek and the science information that we know.

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And basically I would say a distillation of that information,

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but we'll talk about that further today.

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I'm going to talk about the collaborative adaptive ...

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management context, the role of the science team ...

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and the status of Hinkson Creek.

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And Rob Jacobson is going to discuss the ecological ...

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model, the state of science mitigation ...

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projects, perhaps types of monitoring ...

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and assessment, current view of science ...

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priorities from the science team,

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and some notes on basically decision relevant science and ...

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collaborative adaptive management.

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So, Hinkson Creek Cam,

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little background.

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We've talked about this a bit in past presentations.

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Hinkson Creek was listed as impaired on the three or 3d ...

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list of impaired waters due to unknown pollutants.

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The cam process is a result of a legal document,

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legal agreement.

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Aim is to resolve the impairment of Hinkson ...

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Creek in a bit of a different manner.

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This process is a collaborative approach that ...

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identifies three committees of stakeholder action and ...

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science teams to shape and hopefully determine the ...

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needs for Hinkson Creek and how to improve water quality,

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and a process to make changes,

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hopefully and effectively determine effects of those changes.

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We'll have more to say about that.

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So war on cam.

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The TMDL is basically for this purpose is a phased and ...

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adaptive plan to restore water quality conditions in the ...

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Hinkson Creek watershed.

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This is a rather unusual process and it's the only one ...

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of its kind in the state that I know of currently,

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though I would have to ask the TMDL unit if there have ...

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been any additional ones since Hinkson was signed.

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The goal of the CaM TMDL process was basically to ...

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restore the protection of warm water aquatic life for ...

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designated Bento's official use of Hinkson Creek by the ...

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actions of the CAm process.

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So a 303 delisted stream is delisted once there's a TMDL ...

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approved for the water body.

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Without getting into very technical,

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it's placed in category four a of the integrated water quality report.

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However, the stream is still considered ...

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impaired and continued monitoring is required until ...

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the stream attains use.

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For Hinkson, the CAM process requires ...

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monitoring to reduce the uncertainty as a type and ...

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source of pollutants, and we'll have more to say ...

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about that and the difficulty of it,

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and also to improve improvements from actions.

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So this, you've seen this before.

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This is science and the adaptive management process.

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We're currently still mostly here,

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we'll have more to say about that later.

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But the adaptive management process is ...

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basically design and implementation of field ...

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process field experiments.

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The classic adaptive management learning is ...

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challenging because, number one,

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we don't know what the impairments are.

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They're not truly identified, and the stressors are ...

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probably distributed across the watershed,

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in the landscape.

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And it's very difficult to set up small scale experiments to ...

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identify those issues.

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So the science team's role for CAM is basically to evaluate ...

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potential factors that are contributing to the ...

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impairment of Hinkson Creek and evaluate the optimum ...

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application of science to resolve those uncertainties.

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Very difficult, in consideration of those ...

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uncertainties, to determine the efficacy of ...

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actions that would basically improve water quality of ...

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Hinkson's conditions and advise the stakeholder and ...

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action team on science strategies.

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Science team's role is also to make recommendations to ...

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provide the stakeholders with information needed to make ...

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informed decisions about the investments in science which ...

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we know are costly and based on what is known and ...

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what is not known and what needs to be known with ...

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consideration of risk tolerance.

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These are the science team members from a wide variety ...

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of disciplines.

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Really, you've got quite a team here ...

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and I won't go through them.

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But the creation of the science team was appointed ...

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of consisting not more than nine persons not holding ...

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public office, and to be populated by ...

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individuals with scientific backgrounds and credentials ...

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relating to biology, hydrology,

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ecology, chemistry,

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botany, geomorphology and other ...

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physical science disciplines to evaluate the characteristics ...

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of Hinkson Creek.

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And we have all of those with this group,

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science team operations and I would invite the stakeholder ...

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team and I know some of the some of the action team ...

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frequently attend these meetings.

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The science team has monthly meetings and we ...

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have ground rules for the meetings.

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We focus on providing independent,

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decision relevant advice and focus on science and avoid advocacy.

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At times. It's necessary for some of us ...

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to accuse ourselves for some decisions because of what ...

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agencies we may work for or contracting issues,

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and then the products of the science team or advice to the ...

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action team and the stakeholders teams and the ...

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science strategy plan which we're talking about today,

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and certainly limited data analysis and some review.

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So we'll talk a little bit about the status of Hinkson Creek.

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The Macro Intervertebrate Stream condition index is the ...

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method of assessment of Hinkson Creek.

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And Cody talked about this quite a bit in the last or the ...

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second meeting.

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So the Missouri Department of Natural Resources ...

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conducted invertebrate monitoring at eleven sites ...

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from 2012 to 17 to track progress in mitigating impairment.

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The final metric for the inverter monitoring is the ...

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macroinvertebrate stream condition index,

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which we call the Misci score.

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We're not able to see your screen currently.

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Right now it's all black.

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Really?  Yeah.  Great.

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Sorry to interrupt you.

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I have not done anything.

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Thank you for interrupting.

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Where did we leave off?

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Probably about.

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You started talking about the science strategy and it was ...

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black then, but I thought that was ...

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intentional in the action in the stakeholder teams.

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And so I don't know if we need to reconnect or I'm ...

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going to stop presenting and see what happens to bear with Mamie.

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Yeah. Something went awry,

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so I was just talking away.

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I see a little icon, a little red icon at the top.

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Okay.

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See it now?

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Unfortunately not.  Great.

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Well.

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Oh, it's all okay.

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Bear with me for a moment.  My apologies.

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I don't know what happened.

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How's this clicking away.

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So I'm going to restart.

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I believe it's our network.

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Something stopped.

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Can you still hear me?

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I can hear you just fine.

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Okay.

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Figures.

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I think that's where I was.

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Okay, so just tell me when to ...

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change slides. Fantastic. Thank you.

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I'll plow on, as the saying goes.

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So we had.

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The department had conducted invertebrate ...

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monitoring at eleven sites from 2012 to 17 to track ...

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progress with the Misci score, the macroinvertebrate Stream ...

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condition index.

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This index is a multimetric score calculated based on ...

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community attributes, and it's used to assess.

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Did everyone else's screen go blank?

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Yes, but we're back on the slide ...

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again. Okay.

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And this is a test, right.

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It's used to assess whether a stream is supporting use or ...

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not supporting for aquatic life under our water quality standards.

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If you could go to the next slide,

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hopefully it'll go.

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Thank you, Rob.

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So the macroinvertebrates stream condition index scores overview.

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Just as a reminder, and for those that are new,

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scores range from four to 20.

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Scores that are greater than or equal to 16 are fully ...

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supporting and fully supporting of the designated ...

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use as defined in the water quality standards.

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So designated use equals basically protection of aquatic life.

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Next slide.

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Under the 2012 CaM agreement,

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the department agreed to conduct biological monitoring ...

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assessments for three years for 2012 through 15,

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but due to drought conditions,

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it resulted in some non representative conditions in ...

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the fall of 2012 and fall of 2013.

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Due to those conditions, the department sampling ...

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concluded with fall of the 17 sample season.

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Next slide.

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So this is a map of the Hinkson Creek watershed ...

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with a sampling site.

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C eleven DNR sampling sites just to familiarize yourself and ...

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Jason Hubbard's University of Missouri gauging station ...

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studies sites, which are the round dots.

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These are the scores total of the number of samples and ...

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the scores from 2012 through 17.

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So fully supporting and partially supporting the ...

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percent but fully supporting for the whole stream was 54%.

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This is the Ozark Morrow litter Ecological Drainage unit ...

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reference streams, which is what we compare to.

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This is a percent of fully supporting for that.

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For those streams, 82.6%.

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And next slide, if you could wrap this table is ...

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in the science strategy.

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These are all the macro invertebrate stream condition index scores.

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Those attaining use above 16 are in green,

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below 16 are in pink, and then 16,

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I believe are actually in a clear box.

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Takes a while to look at this and stare at it,

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but you can see that they vary a fair amount.

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Next slide.

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These graphs are comparison of all Hinkson scores.

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So on the left is Hinkson water body id.

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Basically, the upstream stations,

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you can see that for all, for all years,

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it's at 61% of passing.

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For the downstream sites, Hinkson one through three,

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it's at 34%, 34.3%.

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And then the Ozark, compared to the Ozark Moro ...

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Luder river reference streams,

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which is at 82.6%.

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Next slide.

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So the invertebrate data shows the class C portion of ...

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the stream is closer to attainment than the class P segment.

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Class C portion is the upstream portion,

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the 3.5 station, 3.5 through eight.

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The downstream scores are lower.

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Continued monitoring is going to need to be ...

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determined in the effectiveness of Hinkson ...

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improvements recommended by the action team and ...

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stakeholders team.

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So delisting this is a question that I just recently had yesterday.

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Delisting would require multiple years of data of ...

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attaining use and watershed improvements to justify ...

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basically a breakpoint in those data.

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So I believe that that was the end of my portion.

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Is that correct, Rob?

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Yeah.  Yes, that is.

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And so I'm going to go ahead and start on my portion of it.

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There is about a five to ten second lag,

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so I hope we all can just sort of accommodate that.

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So, I'm Rob Jacobson.

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I'm the chief of the River Studies branch with the ...

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Columbia Environmental Research center,

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and I've been on the science team from the beginning of this process.

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Let's start with this slide about the classic adaptive ...

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management process and talk about why we are still ...

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mostly here and in various adaptive management ...

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processes I've been involved with.

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We have to deal with this question about when is the ...

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problem well enough understood to start ...

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proceeding around this adaptive management circle.

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And so in some systems, stakeholders are very risk ...

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averse and they want to be very sure what's happening ...

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before they even start doing field experiments.

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Or there could be, you know,

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public safety at risk or something like that.

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So there tends to be a long period of time set on that ...

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assessment problem stage, or a system is sufficiently ...

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complex, there's more likely you're ...

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going to spend more time assessing the problem before ...

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coming up with an experimental design to ...

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implement, monitor and evaluate.

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In addition to that, the mission,

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this is the mission statement.

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The stakeholders use that it's on every one of the agendas,

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which says it that for a project to be considered,

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it must clearly and specifically relate to removing ...

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Hinkson Creek from its impaired status.

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So that also sets a pretty high bar for us as a science ...

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team when we think about what could be done to ...

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implement science and actually participate in this ...

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adaptive management structure.

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A pretty high bar that we should have a project that ...

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would actually relate to removing Hinkson Creek ...

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from its impaired status.

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So we're not looking at just science for science's sake.

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It needs to be decision relevant.

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So I changed slides.

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Now, hopefully this will catch up.

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But this is a picture of Hinkson Creek.

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And on one hand, one can look at Hinkson ...

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Creek or other urban streams as being part of this ...

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population of streams characterized by the urban ...

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stream syndrome, which essentially comes ...

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down to systems that are affected by urban stormwater ...

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delivered to streams by hydraulically efficient ...

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drainage systems.

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That's sort of a simple way of looking at it.

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But even this paper that talked about urban stream ...

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syndrome provided this diagram on this next slide.

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Could somebody confirm that the next slide has come up?

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It has.

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It has. Okay,

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so this shows you how when you start pulling apart the ...

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urban stream, things get very messy very quickly.

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And it is, they can be very complex situations.

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And part of the tension in applying science and ...

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collaborative adaptive management framework is to ...

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figure out how much science needs to be done,

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what's the best science that needs to be done in order to ...

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simplify and cut through to provide decision relevant ...

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information that really pushes the process towards,

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towards management objectives.

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And so this is a conceptually ecological model that we ...

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developed for the Hinkson Creek.

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It's somewhat simplified compared to the previous ...

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diagram and we use this as sort of our menthol map to ...

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keep us understanding what the linkages might be and the ...

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00:18:59.583 --> 00:19:02.998
complexities might be within Hinkson Creek.

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And if you look at it the way this is structured from top to ...

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bottom, you have independent ...

329
00:19:09.551 --> 00:19:13.878
variables at the top and dependent variables at the bottom.

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So at the top is geology and climate,

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which is what we are given with Hinkson Creek.

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There's not much of that that's going to be changed by land use.

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And then there are changes that have been made to the ...

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system and continue to be made to the system that ...

335
00:19:30.517 --> 00:19:34.484
create point and non point source sources of changes in ...

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hydrology and sediment and chemical constituents.

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The left hand side of this has mainly chemical pathways ...

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and the right hand side has mainly physical pathways.

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And the science team has found it useful to differentiate ...

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these two and sort of consider them separately.

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For one thing, if they're chemical ...

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00:19:55.482 --> 00:19:58.913
impairments, that is something to do with ...

343
00:19:58.913 --> 00:20:02.442
the water quality chemistry related to ph,

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related to contaminants.

345
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Those chemical pathways probably have mitigation ...

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efforts that are very different from the ones that are mostly ...

347
00:20:11.843 --> 00:20:13.239
the physical pathways.

348
00:20:13.360 --> 00:20:15.275
That is, things that change the ...

349
00:20:15.275 --> 00:20:17.926
hydrologic regime, the sediment regime or ...

350
00:20:17.926 --> 00:20:19.399
habitat availability.

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00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:23.120
Now they do interact, which is why we have the arrow there.

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00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:26.560
And then we think about a stress moving down through the system.

353
00:20:26.600 --> 00:20:30.714
And at some point that stressor affects stream ...

354
00:20:30.714 --> 00:20:36.199
habitats or presents exposures of chemicals to stream biota.

355
00:20:36.280 --> 00:20:38.284
And in the end in Hinkson Creek,

356
00:20:38.284 --> 00:20:41.831
we're interested in what do these pathways do to affect ...

357
00:20:41.831 --> 00:20:43.758
the invertebrate community.

358
00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:45.777
There could be other endpoints,

359
00:20:45.777 --> 00:20:49.149
but because we're interested in the delisting criteria,

360
00:20:49.149 --> 00:20:51.959
we're looking at that invertebrate community.

361
00:20:52.040 --> 00:20:56.627
And as it's measured by the Missouri stream condition ...

362
00:20:56.627 --> 00:21:00.399
index, we use this to look at these pathways.

363
00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:03.028
For example, the green pathway here is ...

364
00:21:03.028 --> 00:21:06.748
one that might apply to chloride being introduced into ...

365
00:21:06.748 --> 00:21:09.336
the system, coming down and impairing ...

366
00:21:09.336 --> 00:21:11.438
that invertebrate community.

367
00:21:11.600 --> 00:21:14.785
The red pathways, the red arrows are a pathway ...

368
00:21:14.785 --> 00:21:18.473
that might result from the release of sediment in the ...

369
00:21:18.473 --> 00:21:22.664
drainage basin and how that would affect habitat in riffles ...

370
00:21:22.664 --> 00:21:27.358
and how that would affect habitat for the invertebrate community.

371
00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:28.763
Now, both of these could be ...

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00:21:28.763 --> 00:21:31.329
happening at the same time and they can be related and ...

373
00:21:31.329 --> 00:21:33.079
there could be other things as well.

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00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:36.802
But the conceptual ecological model helps us kind of keep ...

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00:21:36.802 --> 00:21:39.879
straight what those pathways might be and try to.

376
00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:43.186
Try to make some simplification of the ...

377
00:21:43.186 --> 00:21:44.319
complexity of the.

378
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:46.360
Of the Hinkson Creek drainage basin.

379
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:51.261
Another factor though in Hinkson Creek is the spatial ...

380
00:21:51.261 --> 00:21:53.559
distribution of these potential stressors.

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00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:57.925
The urban stream syndrome is thought to start up when ...

382
00:21:57.925 --> 00:22:00.792
we're at about 10% impervious area,

383
00:22:00.792 --> 00:22:04.519
which is shown in the dark red here in Columbia.

384
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If we take just the footprint of Columbia,

385
00:22:06.837 --> 00:22:08.359
it's about 15% impervious.

386
00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:11.728
So we'd expect streams in Columbia itself to be ...

387
00:22:11.728 --> 00:22:15.184
potentially affected or characterized as urban ...

388
00:22:15.184 --> 00:22:17.038
stream syndrome streams.

389
00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:22.238
But if we take a look at all the agricultural land that's in the ...

390
00:22:22.238 --> 00:22:24.541
Hinkson Creek drainage basin,

391
00:22:24.541 --> 00:22:27.198
on average it's only 7% impervious.

392
00:22:27.360 --> 00:22:30.973
So when we see parts of the stream that are impaired ...

393
00:22:30.973 --> 00:22:34.328
either by chemicals or physical processes or a ...

394
00:22:34.328 --> 00:22:38.027
combination of those, one of the questions is where ...

395
00:22:38.027 --> 00:22:39.919
is that stressor arising?

396
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:41.360
Is it simply in the.

397
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:47.920
Or is it focused mainly in the urban area on the Hicks ...

398
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:50.359
Creek drainage basin?

399
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:53.780
Or is it a cumulative effect, factors that are happening ...

400
00:22:53.780 --> 00:22:56.799
along all the pathways through the drainage basin?

401
00:22:56.840 --> 00:23:01.372
So that makes some things kind of complicated to try to ...

402
00:23:01.372 --> 00:23:06.206
work out another excuse for why we're still assessing the ...

403
00:23:06.206 --> 00:23:10.436
problem for the most part, and this is what we see as ...

404
00:23:10.436 --> 00:23:13.558
one of the roles for the science team.

405
00:23:13.600 --> 00:23:16.371
I put several quotes up here taken out of the cam ...

406
00:23:16.371 --> 00:23:18.999
agreement about what the science team does.

407
00:23:19.040 --> 00:23:21.353
And so here we're charged with identifying,

408
00:23:21.353 --> 00:23:23.353
evaluating, and advancing necessary ...

409
00:23:23.353 --> 00:23:24.478
scientific studies.

410
00:23:24.840 --> 00:23:26.040
Those are kind of.

411
00:23:27.320 --> 00:23:29.880
Those words can be interpreted in a variety of ways.

412
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:33.179
What we've done in this science strategy document is ...

413
00:23:33.179 --> 00:23:35.401
interpret that as an opening to say,

414
00:23:35.401 --> 00:23:37.327
okay, we should synthesize the ...

415
00:23:37.327 --> 00:23:40.882
science and provide to the stakeholders the synthesis of ...

416
00:23:40.882 --> 00:23:42.437
the state of the science.

417
00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:46.477
That means that the document has grown quite a ...

418
00:23:46.477 --> 00:23:47.839
bit over the years.

419
00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:49.520
It's been a living document.

420
00:23:49.600 --> 00:23:52.781
We have nearly ten years of science investment since the ...

421
00:23:52.781 --> 00:23:53.999
cam process started.

422
00:23:54.040 --> 00:23:56.520
And then there was science before that as well.

423
00:23:56.520 --> 00:23:59.643
So there's actually a lot of science available for the ...

424
00:23:59.643 --> 00:24:01.239
Hinkson Creek drage basin.

425
00:24:01.280 --> 00:24:04.615
So we synthesized that briefly in the science strategy ...

426
00:24:04.615 --> 00:24:07.080
plan, which you can read at your leisure.

427
00:24:08.360 --> 00:24:11.875
We think that there are many strong building blocks of ...

428
00:24:11.875 --> 00:24:15.078
science that have been developed over the years,

429
00:24:15.078 --> 00:24:17.031
but we don't see smoking guns,

430
00:24:17.031 --> 00:24:20.859
unequivocal evidence of what is wrong with Hinkson Creek,

431
00:24:20.859 --> 00:24:25.078
and therefore unequivocal pathway to mitigating that problem.

432
00:24:25.800 --> 00:24:28.960
But the science has become more focused over that ten ...

433
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:31.258
years, and that reflects the learning ...

434
00:24:31.258 --> 00:24:32.479
that's taken place.

435
00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:34.906
And as that learning has taken place,

436
00:24:34.906 --> 00:24:37.922
we've been able to focus the science more on what we ...

437
00:24:37.922 --> 00:24:40.867
think the impairments are and what some possible ...

438
00:24:40.867 --> 00:24:42.878
mitigation strategies could be.

439
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:45.560
So I think the state of the science is strong.

440
00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:48.440
I think that's been shown by the last three webinars we've done.

441
00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:50.840
As part of this, part of this series,

442
00:24:50.840 --> 00:24:54.760
we had a robust assessment of a possible mitigation action ...

443
00:24:54.760 --> 00:24:58.600
level spreader performance that Laura Weiss presented.

444
00:24:58.760 --> 00:25:01.791
We've had the synthesis, the macroinvertebrate data,

445
00:25:01.791 --> 00:25:03.965
which gets at the potential stressors,

446
00:25:03.965 --> 00:25:06.337
how those are arranged in time and in space,

447
00:25:06.337 --> 00:25:08.841
and how they might be affecting the macrovert ...

448
00:25:08.841 --> 00:25:10.158
vertebrate community.

449
00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:13.987
So that was the data mining study that was done by ...

450
00:25:13.987 --> 00:25:17.546
Geosyntec Corey, and then the synthesis that ...

451
00:25:17.546 --> 00:25:21.105
Dan Obrig presented of chemical data that was ...

452
00:25:21.105 --> 00:25:25.882
responsible for the emergent role of chloride in impairment ...

453
00:25:25.882 --> 00:25:30.284
and synthesizing the data set to show us how chloride has ...

454
00:25:30.284 --> 00:25:34.405
at times been at chronic levels in the Hinkson Creek ...

455
00:25:34.405 --> 00:25:35.716
drainage basin.

456
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:40.080
So science seems to be moving in a good direction.

457
00:25:41.600 --> 00:25:44.807
We have a section in the science strategy document ...

458
00:25:44.807 --> 00:25:48.319
about mitigation projects and design and monitoring.

459
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:50.903
The CAM agreement stated that the science team will ...

460
00:25:50.903 --> 00:25:53.639
coordinate monitoring and modeling for Hinkson Creek.

461
00:25:54.600 --> 00:25:55.413
But, in fact,

462
00:25:55.413 --> 00:25:58.742
we really don't have the resources or the authority to ...

463
00:25:58.742 --> 00:26:01.479
do that monitoring and modeling ourselves.

464
00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:06.283
We do take advantage of our role to discuss design of ...

465
00:26:06.283 --> 00:26:10.119
projects and how monitoring should take place.

466
00:26:10.280 --> 00:26:13.928
And I would emphasize the section of the science ...

467
00:26:13.928 --> 00:26:17.485
strategy document that discusses these three ...

468
00:26:17.485 --> 00:26:20.677
questions, or three levels of monitoring ...

469
00:26:20.677 --> 00:26:24.325
and assessment that are important when we think ...

470
00:26:24.325 --> 00:26:28.156
about how to invest in science for Hanks and Creek.

471
00:26:29.120 --> 00:26:32.295
In looking at design of the project and monitoring that ...

472
00:26:32.295 --> 00:26:34.365
project, one of the first questions ...

473
00:26:34.365 --> 00:26:36.918
would be, does the project work as designed?

474
00:26:37.040 --> 00:26:39.040
So this is sort of an engineering question.

475
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:41.440
Did it work out the way it was intended to?

476
00:26:41.560 --> 00:26:44.381
So if it's a riparian restoration project,

477
00:26:44.381 --> 00:26:47.359
the question would be, did the trees survive?

478
00:26:47.800 --> 00:26:50.061
Or for the level spreader project,

479
00:26:50.061 --> 00:26:53.959
did water get intercepted and did it infiltrate? So that's.

480
00:26:54.120 --> 00:26:54.954
That's, you know,

481
00:26:54.954 --> 00:26:57.959
the first level of monitoring evaluation that would take place.

482
00:26:58.120 --> 00:27:01.862
But because we're interested in impairment to Ancient ...

483
00:27:01.862 --> 00:27:04.302
Creek, the next question raises the ...

484
00:27:04.302 --> 00:27:05.359
bar quite a bit.

485
00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:09.320
Does the project measurably mitigate impairment to Hanks and Creek?

486
00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:12.045
So that supposes that we know the impairment,

487
00:27:12.045 --> 00:27:15.177
or we have a strong suspicion or a strong hypothesis of ...

488
00:27:15.177 --> 00:27:16.638
what that impairment is.

489
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:19.120
So that's what we've been, been trying to get at.

490
00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:23.597
And if we've suspect what the source of that impairment is ...

491
00:27:23.597 --> 00:27:27.954
and a project is implemented, do we measure its effect in a ...

492
00:27:27.954 --> 00:27:31.676
way that would have an effect on that impairment?

493
00:27:31.676 --> 00:27:33.037
Is it a big number?

494
00:27:33.120 --> 00:27:34.280
Is it a small number?

495
00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:38.445
And then the third part of this is that once we've established ...

496
00:27:38.445 --> 00:27:41.439
the project moves things in the right direction.

497
00:27:41.520 --> 00:27:43.320
Which is would be step number two.

498
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:45.771
We ask the question, well,

499
00:27:45.771 --> 00:27:47.079
can we do enough of those.

500
00:27:47.120 --> 00:27:48.200
To make a difference.

501
00:27:48.520 --> 00:27:51.880
In terms of removing Hinkson Creek from the impaired status?

502
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:55.325
So if we like what level spreaders do,

503
00:27:55.325 --> 00:27:58.839
how many of those would we need to have?

504
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:01.191
Where would they need to be to,

505
00:28:01.191 --> 00:28:04.888
as a cumulative effect, make a difference in the ...

506
00:28:04.888 --> 00:28:07.199
impairment to Hinkson Creek?

507
00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:08.795
So, again,

508
00:28:08.795 --> 00:28:13.679
we've been mostly at that point of assessing the problem.

509
00:28:17.040 --> 00:28:20.254
And we think, as I'll start to establish with ...

510
00:28:20.254 --> 00:28:22.599
our understanding of chloride.

511
00:28:22.760 --> 00:28:25.120
We might be at the part where we can design.

512
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:30.840
A full on adaptive management experiment for chloride.

513
00:28:31.480 --> 00:28:34.000
We've seen that for the level spreader.

514
00:28:34.080 --> 00:28:37.440
We've actually gone all the way around the circle.

515
00:28:37.560 --> 00:28:39.002
To design, implement,

516
00:28:39.002 --> 00:28:40.519
monitor, and evaluate.

517
00:28:41.520 --> 00:28:44.640
So that followed that adaptive management process pretty well.

518
00:28:44.760 --> 00:28:47.526
But we also that that particular project is less ...

519
00:28:47.526 --> 00:28:48.839
linked to impairment.

520
00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:54.320
In that it's difficult to evaluate or document what that link is.

521
00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:56.000
From the level spreader.

522
00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:59.400
To what we see as the impairments to Hinkson Creek.

523
00:28:59.760 --> 00:29:03.800
Which is not to say it wasn't a valuable project.

524
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:07.920
It's that it's harder to find that linkage to the impairment.

525
00:29:11.600 --> 00:29:14.960
One of the roles of the science strategy document.

526
00:29:15.040 --> 00:29:20.120
Is that we use it to put together the science priorities.

527
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:21.984
And so for the Cam agreement,

528
00:29:21.984 --> 00:29:25.404
it says that the science team is supposed to select the ...

529
00:29:25.404 --> 00:29:27.760
best and most relevant information.

530
00:29:28.600 --> 00:29:29.960
We kind of turn that around.

531
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:33.840
So that's an opening to talk about gaps in information.

532
00:29:34.320 --> 00:29:40.240
And to provide some advice on where we think the information.

533
00:29:40.560 --> 00:29:45.480
Can be most readily and usefully developed.

534
00:29:45.600 --> 00:29:49.600
To help inform decisions on Hinkson Creek.

535
00:29:49.760 --> 00:29:51.680
So the priority section of the report.

536
00:29:51.760 --> 00:29:53.520
Presents an organization discussion.

537
00:29:53.560 --> 00:29:55.000
About science components.

538
00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:57.600
Relevant to hypotheses about impairment.

539
00:29:57.680 --> 00:29:59.920
It's broken down into various types.

540
00:30:00.120 --> 00:30:02.480
We have some science components.

541
00:30:02.560 --> 00:30:04.560
Related to biological metrics.

542
00:30:04.600 --> 00:30:06.173
Are there better ways to understand ...

543
00:30:06.173 --> 00:30:07.799
macroinvertebrate distributions.

544
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:12.120
Or would it be useful to look at fish community responses?

545
00:30:13.040 --> 00:30:15.773
We have science components relate to ...

546
00:30:15.773 --> 00:30:17.359
chemical stressors.

547
00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:20.324
Including things like chemicals like chloride,

548
00:30:20.324 --> 00:30:23.559
sulfate nutrients, or emerging and exotic chemicals.

549
00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:27.280
And do they link to Biota and hence to impairment of ...

550
00:30:27.280 --> 00:30:28.480
Hinkson Creek?

551
00:30:28.560 --> 00:30:31.520
We have some that are categorized as physical stressors.

552
00:30:31.560 --> 00:30:33.315
This includes suspended sediment,

553
00:30:33.315 --> 00:30:35.479
deposited sediment, channel disturbance.

554
00:30:35.560 --> 00:30:37.640
And again, links to biota.

555
00:30:37.800 --> 00:30:39.960
And then we also have a few special topics.

556
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:42.805
That relate to socioeconomics,

557
00:30:42.805 --> 00:30:47.999
outreach, and operational efficiencies in Hinkson Creek.

558
00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:54.040
And just let me do a check to make sure people are still hearing me.

559
00:30:54.080 --> 00:30:55.520
That I'm not just talking to myself.

560
00:30:55.640 --> 00:31:00.553
And that you see the slide that says science priorities on ...

561
00:31:00.553 --> 00:31:01.679
it? Yes, sir.

562
00:31:02.840 --> 00:31:03.600
Good.

563
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:06.506
All right, so this is just an excerpt of ...

564
00:31:06.506 --> 00:31:08.632
table four, which is in the science ...

565
00:31:08.632 --> 00:31:09.878
strategy document.

566
00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:14.264
And so we think of this as one of the main products that ...

567
00:31:14.264 --> 00:31:16.479
we're providing to the stakeholder team.

568
00:31:16.600 --> 00:31:20.720
And we've done this four times now over the past six years or so.

569
00:31:20.800 --> 00:31:23.028
And so it's a living set of priorities,

570
00:31:23.028 --> 00:31:24.559
and they change over time.

571
00:31:24.600 --> 00:31:28.717
The list grows, and we've done some things ...

572
00:31:28.717 --> 00:31:30.599
to the list as well.

573
00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:33.763
So from left to right, there's a category of the ...

574
00:31:33.763 --> 00:31:36.213
science component, a serial number,

575
00:31:36.213 --> 00:31:38.980
a description of that science component,

576
00:31:38.980 --> 00:31:40.798
the status as of March 2021.

577
00:31:41.320 --> 00:31:44.317
And then we have a measure of benefit,

578
00:31:44.317 --> 00:31:47.604
a measure of cost, and a ratio of the two of ...

579
00:31:47.604 --> 00:31:50.407
those, the average benefit to posh ...

580
00:31:50.407 --> 00:31:52.727
ratio, and then some notes on ...

581
00:31:52.727 --> 00:31:57.174
sequencing and mechanisms and ways that they relate to ...

582
00:31:57.174 --> 00:31:59.397
other science components.

583
00:32:01.320 --> 00:32:06.461
So the benefit is done on a one to ten basis,

584
00:32:06.461 --> 00:32:09.839
with ten being the highest.

585
00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:12.199
Cost is also done on one to ten,

586
00:32:12.199 --> 00:32:16.140
but we sort of calibrate it to one might be a $10,000 or ...

587
00:32:16.140 --> 00:32:19.185
less project, and a ten would be a million ...

588
00:32:19.185 --> 00:32:22.589
dollar project, not a million dollars a year,

589
00:32:22.589 --> 00:32:27.157
but a million dollars total over the duration of the project.

590
00:32:27.320 --> 00:32:29.662
And then the benefit to cost ratio,

591
00:32:29.662 --> 00:32:32.973
which gives up some sort of sense of how much value ...

592
00:32:32.973 --> 00:32:35.638
would be received for that investment.

593
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:39.560
So the table has been growing.

594
00:32:39.600 --> 00:32:42.496
We maintain the previous science components and we ...

595
00:32:42.496 --> 00:32:45.325
indicate what progress has been made of some of the ...

596
00:32:45.325 --> 00:32:47.278
components have been subdivided.

597
00:32:47.360 --> 00:32:50.126
For example, targeted chemical sampling ...

598
00:32:50.126 --> 00:32:52.181
14 has been subdivided into 14,

599
00:32:52.181 --> 00:32:53.999
one, two and three, I think.

600
00:32:54.800 --> 00:32:59.315
But the really notable thing, if you compare previous ...

601
00:32:59.315 --> 00:33:03.529
versions of this, is a big shift in priorities in 21 ...

602
00:33:03.529 --> 00:33:06.439
compared to the earlier versions.

603
00:33:06.560 --> 00:33:08.800
This is because the macro inverted.

604
00:33:08.800 --> 00:33:11.559
The data mining study, the Geosynthetics study,

605
00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:14.654
and the chloride studies have presented to the science ...

606
00:33:14.654 --> 00:33:17.278
team compelling and actionable information.

607
00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:21.184
Now, I've got an asterisk on there,

608
00:33:21.184 --> 00:33:26.439
and we discussed this in some of the previous slide.

609
00:33:26.520 --> 00:33:28.240
We think that's highly unlikely.

610
00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:33.716
The macrovertebrate data mining study noted the lack ...

611
00:33:33.716 --> 00:33:37.669
of habitat data to evaluate how other factors like ...

612
00:33:37.669 --> 00:33:43.599
sediment could be affecting the macrovertebrate habitat distributions.

613
00:33:44.360 --> 00:33:48.240
Data on sediment erosion, transport and deposition are limited.

614
00:33:48.280 --> 00:33:51.217
We have had work done on the physical habitat ...

615
00:33:51.217 --> 00:33:54.789
assessment in the past, has given us a lot of insights,

616
00:33:54.789 --> 00:33:57.011
but they are limited compared to,

617
00:33:57.011 --> 00:33:58.598
say, the chloride data.

618
00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:01.662
One of the interesting things about this is that chloride and ...

619
00:34:01.662 --> 00:34:04.719
connectivity are relatively easy and inexpensive to measure.

620
00:34:04.800 --> 00:34:07.469
Get a lot of data for a small investment,

621
00:34:07.469 --> 00:34:11.189
and it tends to give them greater potential in decision ...

622
00:34:11.189 --> 00:34:15.718
making because those data are available and there are a lot of them.

623
00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:18.040
So there's a little bit extra leverage there.

624
00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:20.882
But as noted by others in this series,

625
00:34:20.882 --> 00:34:24.039
the impairments to Hinkson are probably multifaceted.

626
00:34:24.120 --> 00:34:26.613
Not just chloride, not just cetomotor,

627
00:34:26.613 --> 00:34:29.559
not something else we haven't recognized yet.

628
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:33.935
One of the things I think the stakeholders should be ...

629
00:34:33.935 --> 00:34:36.218
looking at, and we hope that the science ...

630
00:34:36.218 --> 00:34:38.778
will help resolve, is how much mitigation of ...

631
00:34:38.778 --> 00:34:41.822
which factors would be sufficient to lead to removal ...

632
00:34:41.822 --> 00:34:42.998
of impaired status.

633
00:34:43.080 --> 00:34:46.434
So if chloride was substantially resolved,

634
00:34:46.434 --> 00:34:50.786
is it okay that the sediment situation remains the same as ...

635
00:34:50.786 --> 00:34:52.599
it is in Haystack Creek?

636
00:34:52.720 --> 00:34:54.920
Would the scores improve enough to the point where it ...

637
00:34:54.920 --> 00:34:55.720
could be delisted?

638
00:34:55.760 --> 00:34:57.640
Or if the opposite, maybe.

639
00:34:57.640 --> 00:35:01.222
If chloride is really, really difficult to address,

640
00:35:01.222 --> 00:35:03.338
but sediment can be addressed,

641
00:35:03.338 --> 00:35:06.839
would that be enough to have a net effect on the macro ...

642
00:35:06.839 --> 00:35:10.177
invertebrate population to move it towards a non ...

643
00:35:10.177 --> 00:35:11.398
impaired status?

644
00:35:14.640 --> 00:35:18.960
This slide shows a table of the science priorities.

645
00:35:19.240 --> 00:35:23.631
Just wanted to pull out some of the top ones to talk about,

646
00:35:23.631 --> 00:35:26.153
and the first five I have up here,

647
00:35:26.153 --> 00:35:30.077
the first five of the rankings are based only on the ...

648
00:35:30.077 --> 00:35:31.478
benefits column.

649
00:35:31.560 --> 00:35:33.200
So we're not looking at the cost at this point.

650
00:35:33.200 --> 00:35:36.960
We're saying just the cost is not a factor.

651
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:41.560
What should we be doing to increase the scientific basis?

652
00:35:41.600 --> 00:35:45.222
The information available for decision making by the action ...

653
00:35:45.222 --> 00:35:47.068
team and the stakeholder team,

654
00:35:47.068 --> 00:35:48.559
the one that came with it.

655
00:35:48.600 --> 00:35:50.400
There are two that tied for number one.

656
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:54.237
One was of a operations or efficiency type of project,

657
00:35:54.237 --> 00:35:57.519
and that is increased collaboration with academia.

658
00:35:58.120 --> 00:36:01.946
And this rose to the top because the science team ...

659
00:36:01.946 --> 00:36:04.815
recognizes that through the years,

660
00:36:04.815 --> 00:36:09.215
it's because of those collaborations with University ...

661
00:36:09.215 --> 00:36:12.371
of Missouri, with Jason Humbert's lab,

662
00:36:12.371 --> 00:36:16.101
with Enos Innis work, and now with Alva Argoric ...

663
00:36:16.101 --> 00:36:18.396
have been very, very useful.

664
00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:21.434
And we now have the opportunity to collaborate ...

665
00:36:21.434 --> 00:36:24.505
with Sean Zeager at Lincoln University as well,

666
00:36:24.505 --> 00:36:27.960
that those collaborations are providing a lot of good ...

667
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:30.878
science and actually at relatively low cost.

668
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:34.541
So that ranked number one, but it tied with number 16 ...

669
00:36:34.541 --> 00:36:37.151
here related to chemical stressors,

670
00:36:37.151 --> 00:36:40.351
which is a road treatment or assault adaptive ...

671
00:36:40.351 --> 00:36:42.119
management experiment.

672
00:36:42.160 --> 00:36:45.854
I'm going to come back and talk about this in more detail,

673
00:36:45.854 --> 00:36:49.391
but this is a direct result of this emphasis and what we ...

674
00:36:49.391 --> 00:36:51.513
understand now about chloride,

675
00:36:51.513 --> 00:36:55.758
the one that ranked third then is also about chemical stressors.

676
00:36:55.800 --> 00:37:00.360
And this one is related to using conductivity meters in a ...

677
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:04.823
fairly wide network in the Hinkson Creek basin in order ...

678
00:37:04.823 --> 00:37:10.159
to nail down when and where those ions are getting into the system.

679
00:37:10.240 --> 00:37:13.880
So it's an extensive way of.

680
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:17.314
Of addressing the question of where and how much ...

681
00:37:17.314 --> 00:37:21.031
chloride or other constituents might be in the system that ...

682
00:37:21.031 --> 00:37:24.445
would be complementary to the very detailed adaptive ...

683
00:37:24.445 --> 00:37:26.038
management experiment.

684
00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:29.428
And the one that ranked fourth was comprehensive ...

685
00:37:29.428 --> 00:37:31.799
chemical monitoring for major parameters.

686
00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:34.959
And so this would be setting up sampling stations ...

687
00:37:34.959 --> 00:37:38.154
throughout the basin, where we were keeping track ...

688
00:37:38.154 --> 00:37:40.284
of major parameters, nutrients,

689
00:37:40.284 --> 00:37:41.425
major cation, ph,

690
00:37:41.425 --> 00:37:44.239
temperature, dissolved oxygen, etcetera.

691
00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:48.194
This is something that's been on the list for a long time,

692
00:37:48.194 --> 00:37:50.859
because basically, that fundamental ...

693
00:37:50.859 --> 00:37:54.273
understanding of water chemistry in the Hinkson ...

694
00:37:54.273 --> 00:37:56.438
Creek basin always ranks high.

695
00:37:56.560 --> 00:37:59.360
But it also ranks, it is very costly.

696
00:37:59.720 --> 00:38:03.800
You can see that the actual ratio of benefits cost is 1.1.

697
00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:09.073
And then the fifth one is also related to chemical stressors,

698
00:38:09.073 --> 00:38:12.982
and that deals with nutrient study that doctor Agarich is ...

699
00:38:12.982 --> 00:38:14.773
doing at Mu, which is both,

700
00:38:14.773 --> 00:38:16.972
has a fairly high benefit at 7.4,

701
00:38:16.972 --> 00:38:20.718
but also a relatively low cost, then just the top three,

702
00:38:20.718 --> 00:38:22.917
based on the benefit cost ratio.

703
00:38:23.040 --> 00:38:24.600
This kind of flips things around.

704
00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:27.990
The first, there is also a related ...

705
00:38:27.990 --> 00:38:31.690
chemical stressor, but very similar to the data ...

706
00:38:31.690 --> 00:38:34.280
mining study the geosyntech did.

707
00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:39.226
It would be a reanalysis and synthesis of data that came ...

708
00:38:39.226 --> 00:38:43.360
out of Jason Hubbard's laboratory through his tenure ...

709
00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:46.759
working at Mu and working on Hinkson Creek.

710
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:50.601
And it would involve a more extensive correlation between ...

711
00:38:50.601 --> 00:38:53.704
those data and the macroinvertebrate data that ...

712
00:38:53.704 --> 00:38:57.039
were collected as part of the geosynthetics study.

713
00:38:57.200 --> 00:38:59.250
So we see that as a lot of benefit,

714
00:38:59.250 --> 00:39:02.896
we think relatively low cost, and so it ranked the highest ...

715
00:39:02.896 --> 00:39:04.719
in a benefit to to cost ratio.

716
00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:09.662
The second one, in terms of benefit to cost,

717
00:39:09.662 --> 00:39:11.839
relates to physical stressors.

718
00:39:12.280 --> 00:39:14.956
And this one has fairly low benefit,

719
00:39:14.956 --> 00:39:19.239
but also very low cost, which is why it ended up where it is.

720
00:39:19.400 --> 00:39:22.201
And this addresses the hypothesis that the macro ...

721
00:39:22.201 --> 00:39:25.549
vertebrae communities might be related to various places ...

722
00:39:25.549 --> 00:39:29.239
along Hinkson Creek, where there's a lot of stream disturbance.

723
00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:32.251
And we have some simple tools to evaluate that,

724
00:39:32.251 --> 00:39:34.955
because there are hydrodynamic models from ...

725
00:39:34.955 --> 00:39:37.879
which we can calculate stress on the streambed.

726
00:39:38.040 --> 00:39:42.406
And so that means this is a low cost product that would ...

727
00:39:42.406 --> 00:39:46.673
be was that could be put together with a little bit of ...

728
00:39:46.673 --> 00:39:48.558
analysis and writing.

729
00:39:48.640 --> 00:39:51.360
So that's why that one ranked fairly high.

730
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:55.437
And then number three in terms of benefit cost actually ...

731
00:39:55.437 --> 00:39:59.000
is the same one as number one in terms of benefits,

732
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:02.128
which is increased collaboration with our ...

733
00:40:02.128 --> 00:40:06.038
academic colleagues to get some of this science done.

734
00:40:06.120 --> 00:40:09.136
But I want to spend a little bit of time on the road salt and ...

735
00:40:09.136 --> 00:40:10.997
adaptive management experiment,

736
00:40:10.997 --> 00:40:14.398
because this is where a lot of the science seems to be pushing us.

737
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:19.305
And it also really fits the model of what adaptive ...

738
00:40:19.305 --> 00:40:21.559
management should be.

739
00:40:22.640 --> 00:40:23.808
So, context is,

740
00:40:23.808 --> 00:40:26.505
we have emerging lines of evidence,

741
00:40:26.505 --> 00:40:30.730
chlorides may reach chronic exposures at some times and ...

742
00:40:30.730 --> 00:40:33.157
in some places in Hinkson Creek.

743
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:40.117
So relatively strong evidence that there's a potential source ...

744
00:40:40.117 --> 00:40:42.439
of impairment there.

745
00:40:44.120 --> 00:40:47.920
Roads and parking lot treatments for ice and snow ...

746
00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:50.515
are implicated for much Orlando,

747
00:40:50.515 --> 00:40:54.222
if not all of that excess loading of chlorides to ...

748
00:40:54.222 --> 00:40:55.519
Hinkson Creek.

749
00:40:55.720 --> 00:40:59.007
So the proposed experiment will address the hypothesis ...

750
00:40:59.007 --> 00:41:01.874
that best management treatment practices can be ...

751
00:41:01.874 --> 00:41:05.091
applied to minimize chloride loading to Hinkson Creek ...

752
00:41:05.091 --> 00:41:07.119
while maintaining public safety.

753
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:10.832
We talked about various ways to do an experiment that ...

754
00:41:10.832 --> 00:41:12.850
would be on roads in Columbia,

755
00:41:12.850 --> 00:41:16.240
and we thought you can't really do that because you ...

756
00:41:16.240 --> 00:41:20.438
would be putting the public at risk to do experiments on roads.

757
00:41:20.600 --> 00:41:24.638
So our concept of how to do this experiment would be to ...

758
00:41:24.638 --> 00:41:28.584
work on instrumented parking lots and use a range of ...

759
00:41:28.584 --> 00:41:30.878
different treatment levels.

760
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:34.392
So we compare treatments to controls we would replicate ...

761
00:41:34.392 --> 00:41:36.559
over storms and treatment levels.

762
00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:38.532
Now, I've got a picture of,

763
00:41:38.532 --> 00:41:42.044
of the zoo campus here, because it has some handy ...

764
00:41:42.044 --> 00:41:45.117
parking lots, plus the practice field for ...

765
00:41:45.117 --> 00:41:48.278
marching the zoo, which are places that may ...

766
00:41:48.278 --> 00:41:52.493
not be used that much in the wintertime and could possibly ...

767
00:41:52.493 --> 00:41:55.917
be fitted up for doing this kind of experiment.

768
00:41:56.600 --> 00:41:58.080
But this is just for an example.

769
00:41:58.120 --> 00:42:02.920
There could be other parking lots in Columbia as well.

770
00:42:03.240 --> 00:42:07.284
And I'll note that in the extensive discussions that the ...

771
00:42:07.284 --> 00:42:10.382
science team has had a with the university,

772
00:42:10.382 --> 00:42:13.652
the city and the state about road treatments,

773
00:42:13.652 --> 00:42:17.782
it became clear that all three of those entities really do ...

774
00:42:17.782 --> 00:42:21.826
practice best management techniques in applying those ...

775
00:42:21.826 --> 00:42:23.116
road treatments.

776
00:42:23.200 --> 00:42:27.102
And we think that the question is mainly about ...

777
00:42:27.102 --> 00:42:32.031
private contractors working on private lots and how much ...

778
00:42:32.031 --> 00:42:37.679
they might be contributing to chloride loading in Hinkson Creek.

779
00:42:37.720 --> 00:42:41.562
So one of the things that would come out of this could ...

780
00:42:41.562 --> 00:42:45.672
be not only the science value, doing the monitoring and ...

781
00:42:45.672 --> 00:42:49.693
assessment to show us what a best management practice ...

782
00:42:49.693 --> 00:42:52.105
can do, but we could also use it as ...

783
00:42:52.105 --> 00:42:55.947
demonstration projects that could be used to bring ...

784
00:42:55.947 --> 00:42:59.878
practitioners in to look at how these different best ...

785
00:42:59.878 --> 00:43:02.916
management practices could be applied.

786
00:43:03.080 --> 00:43:06.488
So the experiment would have all three parts to it,

787
00:43:06.488 --> 00:43:09.409
we would be evaluating the effectiveness,

788
00:43:09.409 --> 00:43:13.141
does it work as designed so that a particular treatment ...

789
00:43:13.141 --> 00:43:14.358
lowers chloride?

790
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:17.200
And at the same time, we would have independent ...

791
00:43:17.200 --> 00:43:18.441
measures about, you know,

792
00:43:18.441 --> 00:43:19.399
how effective it is.

793
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:24.480
Are we still maintaining safety in terms of ice removal?

794
00:43:26.200 --> 00:43:27.602
And then at that second level,

795
00:43:27.602 --> 00:43:30.125
we'd evaluate whether the treatment has a measurable ...

796
00:43:30.125 --> 00:43:31.639
positive effect on impairment.

797
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:33.940
In other words, if we decrease chloride,

798
00:43:33.940 --> 00:43:35.799
is it a big number or a small number?

799
00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:39.926
Is it big enough to be important to macro ...

800
00:43:39.926 --> 00:43:43.359
invertebrates in Hinkson Creek?

801
00:43:45.240 --> 00:43:48.480
And the third would be more of a follow on modeling study.

802
00:43:48.520 --> 00:43:50.900
But that gets at that question, well,

803
00:43:50.900 --> 00:43:54.432
could you implement this at a scale that would be enough ...

804
00:43:54.432 --> 00:43:57.119
to remove impairment from Hinkson Creek.

805
00:43:57.160 --> 00:43:59.948
That is, if you took all the parking lots ...

806
00:43:59.948 --> 00:44:02.905
in town and applied whatever acceptable,

807
00:44:02.905 --> 00:44:06.369
best management practice we came up with to them,

808
00:44:06.369 --> 00:44:10.002
could that possibly be enough decrease in chloride ...

809
00:44:10.002 --> 00:44:13.719
mode to remove Hinkson Creek from the impaired list?

810
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:18.080
So that's the concept we have.

811
00:44:18.160 --> 00:44:21.022
We don't have any idea how this would be done or who ...

812
00:44:21.022 --> 00:44:21.999
would pay for it.

813
00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:27.590
It rose to the top in the science team for what we ...

814
00:44:27.590 --> 00:44:33.315
think would be a very useful approach to addressing this ...

815
00:44:33.315 --> 00:44:38.918
emerging understanding of chloride as an impairment.

816
00:44:41.160 --> 00:44:43.029
Okay, so then very briefly,

817
00:44:43.029 --> 00:44:47.011
to sort of sum up the last part of the science strategy plan,

818
00:44:47.011 --> 00:44:50.587
we also take the opportunity to get on our soapbox and ...

819
00:44:50.587 --> 00:44:53.188
talk about what we think would help be,

820
00:44:53.188 --> 00:44:56.683
would help the science and collaborative adaptive ...

821
00:44:56.683 --> 00:45:00.015
management process move forward and accelerate ...

822
00:45:00.015 --> 00:45:01.396
towards delisting.

823
00:45:01.480 --> 00:45:03.298
And I guess I'll say, frankly,

824
00:45:03.298 --> 00:45:06.498
that the science team has been concerned over the ten ...

825
00:45:06.498 --> 00:45:07.879
years of this project.

826
00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:09.873
There have been some periods of time when there's ...

827
00:45:09.873 --> 00:45:10.759
been a lot of progress.

828
00:45:10.880 --> 00:45:14.480
There's been periods of time that seems like nothing is happening.

829
00:45:14.640 --> 00:45:18.560
And one of the things that we would like to do is really accelerate.

830
00:45:18.600 --> 00:45:21.890
So we get to the point where the stakeholders feel they ...

831
00:45:21.890 --> 00:45:25.546
have the information that they can make the decisions about ...

832
00:45:25.546 --> 00:45:28.543
how to move forward to get Hinkson Creek to a state ...

833
00:45:28.543 --> 00:45:30.078
where it can be delisted.

834
00:45:30.200 --> 00:45:34.160
So some recommendations that we have.

835
00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:37.920
This is sort of generic to so many different things that we all do.

836
00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:40.600
It would be beneficial to increase the frequency and ...

837
00:45:40.600 --> 00:45:43.480
the quality of communication among the science actions.

838
00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:44.320
Take over teams.

839
00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:47.240
I think the series of webinars has been great.

840
00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:49.360
I think we should do this at least annually.

841
00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:52.981
That helps when there's turnover on the various teams ...

842
00:45:52.981 --> 00:45:55.599
so people can get up to speed on what's going on.

843
00:45:55.800 --> 00:45:58.868
Of course, it's better to do it in person so ...

844
00:45:58.868 --> 00:46:01.849
we get a better sense of who everybody is,

845
00:46:01.849 --> 00:46:04.479
but certainly that communication.

846
00:46:04.560 --> 00:46:09.120
So the kinds of questions that the science team is grappling ...

847
00:46:09.120 --> 00:46:12.039
with are not unfamiliar to the action.

848
00:46:12.080 --> 00:46:13.880
And I, stakeholder teams,

849
00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:17.645
we think it would really accelerate decision relevant ...

850
00:46:17.645 --> 00:46:20.591
science and get things moving if there was a ...

851
00:46:20.591 --> 00:46:24.519
systematic and periodic RFP funding process for Hinkson ...

852
00:46:24.519 --> 00:46:26.237
Creek science projects.

853
00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:28.878
Right now, when somebody is interested ...

854
00:46:28.878 --> 00:46:30.755
in doing science on the creek,

855
00:46:30.755 --> 00:46:33.158
they don't really have any place to go.

856
00:46:33.160 --> 00:46:34.840
They can say, I'd like to do this.

857
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:37.620
If there was a pot of money that the partners came up ...

858
00:46:37.620 --> 00:46:39.646
with and said, every year this money is ...

859
00:46:39.646 --> 00:46:41.799
going to be available for an RFP process.

860
00:46:42.720 --> 00:46:46.875
Send in a proposal and we'll see which rises to the top so ...

861
00:46:46.875 --> 00:46:50.759
that every year we know there would be some progress ...

862
00:46:50.759 --> 00:46:53.830
taking place, because in the past what's ...

863
00:46:53.830 --> 00:46:57.624
happened is there have been these lags in funding,

864
00:46:57.624 --> 00:47:01.598
lags in people who are willing to pursue the science.

865
00:47:01.720 --> 00:47:04.840
And so we've lost the momentum.

866
00:47:04.840 --> 00:47:07.600
We think the momentum is, is critical to keep that going.

867
00:47:08.160 --> 00:47:10.216
Now, Hinkson Creek,

868
00:47:10.216 --> 00:47:15.241
the camp partners pay for some of the science and they ...

869
00:47:15.241 --> 00:47:18.439
don't pay for some of the science.

870
00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:24.040
And so there's not for the next two recommendations.

871
00:47:24.120 --> 00:47:26.938
There may not always be a lot of leverage to make these ...

872
00:47:26.938 --> 00:47:29.051
things happen, but certainly if the CAM ...

873
00:47:29.051 --> 00:47:31.036
partners are paying for the science,

874
00:47:31.036 --> 00:47:34.238
they should require quarterly reports and annual reports.

875
00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:37.595
And I just have to say that Geosyntech was great,

876
00:47:37.595 --> 00:47:40.599
at least reporting frequently to the science team.

877
00:47:40.720 --> 00:47:43.560
So we felt that whole process worked very well.

878
00:47:43.600 --> 00:47:44.834
We knew what they were doing,

879
00:47:44.834 --> 00:47:46.119
we knew where they were going.

880
00:47:46.160 --> 00:47:49.040
We were able to provide feedback to them.

881
00:47:49.160 --> 00:47:53.658
So it was a very productive sort of interaction with ...

882
00:47:53.658 --> 00:47:55.959
Geosyntech in doing that.

883
00:47:56.040 --> 00:47:58.012
Now, if camp partners are not ...

884
00:47:58.012 --> 00:48:01.628
paying for the science, if instead of coming in from,

885
00:48:01.628 --> 00:48:05.244
from EPA or who's coming in from NSF or something like ...

886
00:48:05.244 --> 00:48:07.709
that, it still would be good to try to ...

887
00:48:07.709 --> 00:48:11.735
create those partnerships and collaborations so that the ...

888
00:48:11.735 --> 00:48:15.351
CAb partners can ask for the ability to do reviews and ...

889
00:48:15.351 --> 00:48:18.638
provide input to the science that's being done.

890
00:48:18.840 --> 00:48:22.600
This next recommendation is probably more important than that.

891
00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:26.231
If CAM is paying for a project, they should require that the ...

892
00:48:26.231 --> 00:48:29.000
data collected through that CAM funded project is ...

893
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:32.033
distributed into the public domain after a reasonable ...

894
00:48:32.033 --> 00:48:33.879
embargo period for publication.

895
00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:36.202
Quality control, this is really the standard if ...

896
00:48:36.202 --> 00:48:37.799
you're getting funding from NSF,

897
00:48:37.799 --> 00:48:40.195
if you're getting funding from NIH or a lot of other ...

898
00:48:40.195 --> 00:48:41.279
government agencies.

899
00:48:42.120 --> 00:48:46.175
But there's still in some journals require that the data ...

900
00:48:46.175 --> 00:48:49.712
that are being used are distributed in the public ...

901
00:48:49.712 --> 00:48:52.559
domain when a manuscript is published.

902
00:48:53.520 --> 00:48:56.156
But there's still a lot of data sets that aren't published in ...

903
00:48:56.156 --> 00:48:56.999
the public domain.

904
00:48:57.520 --> 00:48:59.140
Again, if CAM is paying for it,

905
00:48:59.140 --> 00:49:00.760
this should be a requirement.

906
00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:03.677
If they're not paying for it, it's harder to make a ...

907
00:49:03.677 --> 00:49:05.150
requirement, of course,

908
00:49:05.150 --> 00:49:08.518
but it is something that should certainly be encouraged.

909
00:49:10.720 --> 00:49:13.111
We think the CAM should consider a peer review ...

910
00:49:13.111 --> 00:49:14.999
process for Hinkson Creek Science.

911
00:49:15.600 --> 00:49:18.228
The science team is sort of been doing this,

912
00:49:18.228 --> 00:49:20.491
but there's also, and this comes from ...

913
00:49:20.491 --> 00:49:24.360
experience working with other adaptive management projects.

914
00:49:24.360 --> 00:49:29.020
It hasn't been as much of an issue with things creek,

915
00:49:29.020 --> 00:49:33.789
but it's when scientists publish that suddenly has a ...

916
00:49:33.789 --> 00:49:38.341
surprise or has a strong leverage or effect on what ...

917
00:49:38.341 --> 00:49:43.435
some of the policies might be or the policy direction has ...

918
00:49:43.435 --> 00:49:46.578
been for that management process,

919
00:49:46.578 --> 00:49:49.070
and it can get down to, like,

920
00:49:49.070 --> 00:49:51.237
how good is the science?

921
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:53.320
And do we believe the science or nothing?

922
00:49:53.440 --> 00:49:57.320
We like to think about peer review being the gold standard.

923
00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:00.353
But in reality, journal peer review frequently ...

924
00:50:00.353 --> 00:50:03.602
does not address the quality and the scope needed for ...

925
00:50:03.602 --> 00:50:05.078
local decision making.

926
00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:09.805
As a technical journal editor, I will often look at a ...

927
00:50:09.805 --> 00:50:14.119
manuscript that has great international value.

928
00:50:14.200 --> 00:50:17.021
It's got some great cool ideas in it,

929
00:50:17.021 --> 00:50:20.688
and it may have been generated from a place like ...

930
00:50:20.688 --> 00:50:23.979
Kingston Creek, but the acceptance in the ...

931
00:50:23.979 --> 00:50:28.775
journal after peer review isn't looking at those things that ...

932
00:50:28.775 --> 00:50:31.878
the stakeholders might want to look at.

933
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:36.160
And so we can anticipate that that might happen on Hanson Creek.

934
00:50:36.200 --> 00:50:39.251
I think the science team can help to some extent to do ...

935
00:50:39.251 --> 00:50:40.812
this, but we have a generic ...

936
00:50:40.812 --> 00:50:43.437
problem with the science team that we're all ...

937
00:50:43.437 --> 00:50:45.637
volunteers, and so it's hard for us to ...

938
00:50:45.637 --> 00:50:47.198
commit our time to do that.

939
00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:50.512
But I think the partners should consider the value of ...

940
00:50:50.512 --> 00:50:53.817
when science gets done, that there's some sort of peer ...

941
00:50:53.817 --> 00:50:55.800
review process that says, okay,

942
00:50:55.800 --> 00:50:58.958
how does this really relate to our decision making?

943
00:50:59.040 --> 00:51:02.042
And on Hanks and Creek, then finally,

944
00:51:02.042 --> 00:51:07.079
a recommendation that we've made before didn't get anywhere.

945
00:51:07.160 --> 00:51:11.753
And I understand why, but we find that it really ...

946
00:51:11.753 --> 00:51:16.700
would be useful to have a person or a part of a person ...

947
00:51:16.700 --> 00:51:21.176
to help out the science team, to work with data ...

948
00:51:21.176 --> 00:51:24.238
management and some analysis.

949
00:51:24.920 --> 00:51:28.172
And just to give you a sense of why we think this is ...

950
00:51:28.172 --> 00:51:30.855
important, at just about every science ...

951
00:51:30.855 --> 00:51:32.888
team meeting, we come up with a ...

952
00:51:32.888 --> 00:51:34.677
suggestion, two or three,

953
00:51:34.677 --> 00:51:36.791
maybe half a dozen things that,

954
00:51:36.791 --> 00:51:39.556
that are relatively small, they're not,

955
00:51:39.556 --> 00:51:42.808
not a big project that you would contract for the ...

956
00:51:42.808 --> 00:51:47.036
relatively small kinds of data analysis or data compilation.

957
00:51:47.120 --> 00:51:49.160
And this would really help move things forward.

958
00:51:49.320 --> 00:51:52.715
And then we look around the table at everybody who is ...

959
00:51:52.715 --> 00:51:55.241
doing all of this on a volunteer basis,

960
00:51:55.241 --> 00:51:58.715
and nobody really has the time or commit our agency to ...

961
00:51:58.715 --> 00:52:01.557
pay for it, or commit our staff to pay for it.

962
00:52:01.680 --> 00:52:03.720
And so these things don't get done.

963
00:52:03.760 --> 00:52:06.276
Or once in a while, John Holmes from Allstate ...

964
00:52:06.276 --> 00:52:07.160
will say, okay,

965
00:52:07.160 --> 00:52:08.656
I'll do it, which is a very,

966
00:52:08.656 --> 00:52:09.880
very valuable thing.

967
00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:11.211
But again, it's something that,

968
00:52:11.211 --> 00:52:12.645
you know, he's not getting paid for,

969
00:52:12.645 --> 00:52:14.079
his company's not getting paid for.

970
00:52:14.160 --> 00:52:16.920
So we would like to keep this one on the table.

971
00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:21.032
We think it would be highly beneficial to continue to move ...

972
00:52:21.032 --> 00:52:22.559
the science forward.

973
00:52:23.560 --> 00:52:28.268
And I want to end up with a reiteration of something that ...

974
00:52:28.268 --> 00:52:30.519
Cody and Sam talked about.

975
00:52:30.640 --> 00:52:34.836
They've seen a lot of urban streams throughout the state ...

976
00:52:34.836 --> 00:52:38.764
of Missouri and have pointed out that Hinkson Creek,

977
00:52:38.764 --> 00:52:40.639
you know, is not that bad.

978
00:52:40.720 --> 00:52:41.920
I think this is true.

979
00:52:41.960 --> 00:52:45.939
Although it is impaired, it retains a lot of ecological,

980
00:52:45.939 --> 00:52:48.479
aesthetic and recreational value.

981
00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:52.805
And we need to keep that in mind and perhaps think more ...

982
00:52:52.805 --> 00:52:55.601
about, in addition to removing it from ...

983
00:52:55.601 --> 00:52:59.009
the impaired list, thinking about ways to make ...

984
00:52:59.009 --> 00:53:02.242
sure it doesn't go back on the impaired list,

985
00:53:02.242 --> 00:53:05.038
that this high quality is maintained.

986
00:53:05.160 --> 00:53:08.005
So thank you very much for your time,

987
00:53:08.005 --> 00:53:11.039
and I'll be happy to answer questions.

988
00:53:11.080 --> 00:53:15.600
I can volunteer Tim to answer questions as well.

989
00:53:20.720 --> 00:53:23.345
Let me do a quick check and ask,

990
00:53:23.345 --> 00:53:28.280
did everybody hear that through the end and see my slide?

991
00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:29.136
Yes, sir,

992
00:53:29.136 --> 00:53:31.160
all the way through. Okay.

993
00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:32.480
Okay, good.

994
00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:55.040
Well, this is an uncomfortable silence.

995
00:53:58.240 --> 00:53:58.868
Hey, thanks,

996
00:53:58.868 --> 00:53:59.839
Rob, for doing that.

997
00:53:59.840 --> 00:54:01.240
This is Erin Keys.

998
00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:05.882
I guess I did have a question that one of your items that ...

999
00:54:05.882 --> 00:54:09.729
you were recommending, and you may have explained ...

1000
00:54:09.729 --> 00:54:11.378
it, but maybe I need to ...

1001
00:54:11.378 --> 00:54:13.118
understand it better.

1002
00:54:13.160 --> 00:54:16.621
Was one of your recommendations ...

1003
00:54:16.621 --> 00:54:20.852
Washington, better coordination with ...

1004
00:54:20.852 --> 00:54:22.518
academia and I.

1005
00:54:23.240 --> 00:54:24.840
Or it was something along those lines.

1006
00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:26.840
I forget the phrase that you had in there.

1007
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:29.960
Yeah, I guess I just.

1008
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:31.640
I didn't know what that looked like.

1009
00:54:31.680 --> 00:54:32.650
What, what,

1010
00:54:32.650 --> 00:54:34.591
you know, what actions,

1011
00:54:34.591 --> 00:54:35.658
you know, by,

1012
00:54:35.658 --> 00:54:38.958
by anyone need to be taken. Was that more.

1013
00:54:39.080 --> 00:54:41.480
Is that kind of what you're talking about in your last slide?

1014
00:54:41.560 --> 00:54:43.898
Was some of those steps or, you know,

1015
00:54:43.898 --> 00:54:46.159
I guess, what would that look like?

1016
00:54:46.200 --> 00:54:48.040
I guess is what I'm trying to ask.

1017
00:54:48.120 --> 00:54:50.000
Okay, sure.

1018
00:54:50.040 --> 00:54:52.720
Well, so.

1019
00:54:52.840 --> 00:54:56.173
And I think it's mainly coordination on the part of ...

1020
00:54:56.173 --> 00:54:57.919
the science team. That's.

1021
00:54:57.960 --> 00:55:00.610
It's something the science team needs to do,

1022
00:55:00.610 --> 00:55:03.546
is to reach out to our academic colleagues who are ...

1023
00:55:03.546 --> 00:55:05.981
interested in working in Hinkson Creek,

1024
00:55:05.981 --> 00:55:08.559
who are already working in Hinkson Creek.

1025
00:55:08.600 --> 00:55:11.131
I mean, it's a great resource to do ...

1026
00:55:11.131 --> 00:55:15.470
science in and invite them to our meetings and invite them ...

1027
00:55:15.470 --> 00:55:17.639
to be part of the discussion.

1028
00:55:18.320 --> 00:55:22.200
They get our feedback, we get their feedback.

1029
00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:24.240
We find that to be a very useful thing.

1030
00:55:24.280 --> 00:55:27.783
So it's not a site like a fundable science component ...

1031
00:55:27.783 --> 00:55:29.493
as such, but we saw it as an ...

1032
00:55:29.493 --> 00:55:33.403
operational component that would really improve what's ...

1033
00:55:33.403 --> 00:55:35.358
happening on Hinkson Creek.

1034
00:55:35.400 --> 00:55:38.288
And there could be some things that the action team or ...

1035
00:55:38.288 --> 00:55:41.439
the stakeholders team could do to help help work that out.

1036
00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:43.030
So, for example,

1037
00:55:43.030 --> 00:55:45.247
Sean Zieger, who's a new assistant ...

1038
00:55:45.247 --> 00:55:47.694
professor now at Lincoln University,

1039
00:55:47.694 --> 00:55:51.135
is interested in working more on Hinkson Creek and the ...

1040
00:55:51.135 --> 00:55:54.576
things that we could do as a science team or as an action ...

1041
00:55:54.576 --> 00:55:56.793
team to help him do what he's doing,

1042
00:55:56.793 --> 00:56:00.157
including installation gauges and stuff like that.

1043
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:04.160
That's all going to be very valuable at relatively low cost.

1044
00:56:07.280 --> 00:56:08.640
Okay, thanks.  Yep.

1045
00:56:08.680 --> 00:56:10.353
Thanks for the clarification. And,

1046
00:56:10.353 --> 00:56:10.799
yeah, we.

1047
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:13.321
I think Tom Wellman was helping him,

1048
00:56:13.321 --> 00:56:15.762
you know, navigate what he needed to ...

1049
00:56:15.762 --> 00:56:17.959
do to set up his monitoring site.

1050
00:56:18.040 --> 00:56:18.549
So, yeah,

1051
00:56:18.549 --> 00:56:20.839
we're happy to help with that kind of stuff.

1052
00:56:38.360 --> 00:56:40.280
We have a question that just came in from Dee.

1053
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:41.680
I don't know if you can see it or not.

1054
00:56:41.720 --> 00:56:42.840
It seems like a lot.

1055
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:45.384
Seems like chloride is such a widespread problem,

1056
00:56:45.384 --> 00:56:47.808
I'm surprised there isn't already an established ...

1057
00:56:47.808 --> 00:56:48.558
science in BMP.

1058
00:56:48.640 --> 00:56:49.720
Is this true?

1059
00:56:49.880 --> 00:56:51.720
Is doing it locally important?

1060
00:56:53.480 --> 00:56:54.760
So is that true?

1061
00:56:54.800 --> 00:56:56.240
And is there local?

1062
00:56:57.960 --> 00:56:58.813
You know, you know,

1063
00:56:58.813 --> 00:57:00.199
that's a really good question.

1064
00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:02.346
It gets, I think it gets to one of the ...

1065
00:57:02.346 --> 00:57:06.119
fundamental things about collaborative adaptive management.

1066
00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:12.660
It's kind of a question of whether local stakeholders ...

1067
00:57:12.660 --> 00:57:16.068
will move forward with science that's been ...

1068
00:57:16.068 --> 00:57:19.381
developed in Minneapolis or Binghamton,

1069
00:57:19.381 --> 00:57:23.357
New York or something like that without seeing the ...

1070
00:57:23.357 --> 00:57:25.439
science develop locally.

1071
00:57:25.600 --> 00:57:28.241
So if you pull the science team about chloride,

1072
00:57:28.241 --> 00:57:29.799
you say that's a no brainer.

1073
00:57:29.800 --> 00:57:31.400
You should do BMP's right away.

1074
00:57:32.920 --> 00:57:37.071
But the value of doing the adaptive management ...

1075
00:57:37.071 --> 00:57:39.199
experiment is twofold.

1076
00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:44.680
One is to dial in if there's a range of different BMP's.

1077
00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:47.625
What range? Given the situation,

1078
00:57:47.625 --> 00:57:50.780
the climatic situation we have in in Columbia,

1079
00:57:50.780 --> 00:57:53.045
Missouri, what range of BMP's are ...

1080
00:57:53.045 --> 00:57:56.119
effective and still maintain public safety?

1081
00:57:56.520 --> 00:58:00.834
And the other part of it is the value as a demonstration ...

1082
00:58:00.834 --> 00:58:04.956
project that you can say in the show me state would be ...

1083
00:58:04.956 --> 00:58:08.119
showing right here how this is working.

1084
00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:12.920
But it's really a question of how much risk.

1085
00:58:14.080 --> 00:58:16.729
It's a question of risk aversion or risk acceptance on the part ...

1086
00:58:16.729 --> 00:58:17.799
of the stakeholder team.

1087
00:58:18.640 --> 00:58:21.936
If they believe the chloride science from other places,

1088
00:58:21.936 --> 00:58:23.759
the work that's been done in St.

1089
00:58:23.800 --> 00:58:25.854
Louis suburbs, for example,

1090
00:58:25.854 --> 00:58:28.079
and they could go ahead and say,

1091
00:58:28.079 --> 00:58:30.561
yep, we're going to try to turn this ...

1092
00:58:30.561 --> 00:58:32.958
into policy without the science.

1093
00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:40.800
Does that make sense, Michele?

1094
00:58:42.120 --> 00:58:43.874
I believe so. Dee,

1095
00:58:43.874 --> 00:58:48.552
do you have any follow up questions to that or did ...

1096
00:58:48.552 --> 00:58:51.359
anyone else for that matter?

1097
00:59:09.560 --> 00:59:11.360
I'm very familiar.  This is from D.

1098
00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:14.089
I'm very familiar with the Hinkson tributary that gets ...

1099
00:59:14.089 --> 00:59:15.759
run off from the marching band lot.

1100
00:59:15.800 --> 00:59:19.040
There's a nice detention basin with natives, I think.

1101
00:59:19.160 --> 00:59:21.200
I would hate to see that area damaged.

1102
00:59:25.960 --> 00:59:29.320
So that is a comment as well.

1103
00:59:30.280 --> 00:59:31.720
So something to think about.

1104
00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:37.400
Yeah, yeah.

1105
00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:39.560
That would definitely be something to take into account.

1106
00:59:39.720 --> 00:59:43.680
We wouldn't want to do something at the experiment ...

1107
00:59:43.680 --> 00:59:46.320
that would actually be negative.

1108
00:59:46.520 --> 00:59:49.573
Just like we don't want to create any sort of public ...

1109
00:59:49.573 --> 00:59:53.134
safety hazard if there's a restoration project detention ...

1110
00:59:53.134 --> 00:59:54.079
basin in place.

1111
00:59:54.160 --> 00:59:55.400
We won't want to.

1112
00:59:56.600 --> 00:59:58.920
We wouldn't want to do anything negative to that.

1113
00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:02.480
So we would take that into account in putting this together.

1114
01:00:02.640 --> 01:00:05.571
This is really a conceptual stage because there's all ...

1115
01:00:05.571 --> 01:00:08.046
sorts of pieces that would need to be added up,

1116
01:00:08.046 --> 01:00:11.238
including finding scientists who are interested in doing ...

1117
01:00:11.238 --> 01:00:13.518
the work and getting it funded, etcetera.

1118
01:00:14.120 --> 01:00:18.334
But as long as we're talking about detention basins,

1119
01:00:18.334 --> 01:00:21.494
I think it's another potential part of,

1120
01:00:21.494 --> 01:00:24.558
or potential part of that experiment.

1121
01:00:25.000 --> 01:00:27.760
We know that chloride is very soluble,

1122
01:00:27.760 --> 01:00:31.555
so it's most likely go through detention basins or go ...

1123
01:00:31.555 --> 01:00:34.919
through a level spread or infiltration field,

1124
01:00:34.919 --> 01:00:37.679
so it will eventually get to the creek.

1125
01:00:37.840 --> 01:00:40.278
But one of the questions might be,

1126
01:00:40.278 --> 01:00:42.891
another hypothesis would be, well,

1127
01:00:42.891 --> 01:00:46.462
are there ways to do not just the treatment BMP's,

1128
01:00:46.462 --> 01:00:51.078
but also could you do detention base and retention basin BMP's?

1129
01:00:51.240 --> 01:00:52.760
That would slow down.

1130
01:00:52.800 --> 01:00:57.064
It wouldn't keep the chlorides from getting to the creek,

1131
01:00:57.064 --> 01:01:01.417
but it could slow it down so it wouldn't reach those chronic ...

1132
01:01:01.417 --> 01:01:03.638
levels as often or for as long.

1133
01:01:06.920 --> 01:01:08.800
Hey Rob, this is Cody.

1134
01:01:09.160 --> 01:01:12.825
I just have a comment based on one of the science team ...

1135
01:01:12.825 --> 01:01:14.359
meetings I attended.

1136
01:01:15.160 --> 01:01:18.433
I can't remember which entity mentioned it,

1137
01:01:18.433 --> 01:01:21.618
but some of the private agencies or private ...

1138
01:01:21.618 --> 01:01:24.095
businesses that treat roadways,

1139
01:01:24.095 --> 01:01:27.368
parking lots, those private ingress egress ...

1140
01:01:27.368 --> 01:01:30.641
to businesses, mentioned that the rate they ...

1141
01:01:30.641 --> 01:01:35.596
charge is sometimes based on the amount of application they apply.

1142
01:01:35.800 --> 01:01:40.693
And so maybe there's some opportunity for the city with,

1143
01:01:40.693 --> 01:01:44.858
and county and university, therefore with some ...

1144
01:01:44.858 --> 01:01:48.606
education and some type of ordinance that,

1145
01:01:48.606 --> 01:01:51.833
you know, we're not charging private ...

1146
01:01:51.833 --> 01:01:54.852
citizens by application amounts,

1147
01:01:54.852 --> 01:01:56.622
but we're, you know,

1148
01:01:56.622 --> 01:01:59.329
you know, that would encourage ...

1149
01:01:59.329 --> 01:02:02.036
overuse of certain chlorides.

1150
01:02:04.160 --> 01:02:05.322
Yeah, I remember that,

1151
01:02:05.322 --> 01:02:06.239
that discussion.

1152
01:02:06.280 --> 01:02:10.642
I can't remember where that information came from,

1153
01:02:10.642 --> 01:02:13.482
but it stands to reason, and this,

1154
01:02:13.482 --> 01:02:18.250
this could be the value of doing a demonstration project ...

1155
01:02:18.250 --> 01:02:23.119
to demonstrate that there is a profit motive in using a BMP ...

1156
01:02:23.119 --> 01:02:27.684
that minimizes application, or is more precise in the ...

1157
01:02:27.684 --> 01:02:32.756
application to minimize the amount of product that is used.

1158
01:02:32.800 --> 01:02:36.337
And that's where getting back to that first question about ...

1159
01:02:36.337 --> 01:02:39.079
don't we already know enough about chloride?

1160
01:02:39.520 --> 01:02:41.574
This could be what we know enough about it,

1161
01:02:41.574 --> 01:02:44.039
but this would be a way of helping convince people.

1162
01:02:54.600 --> 01:02:56.740
Hi, this is Janine Pagan and I'm ...

1163
01:02:56.740 --> 01:02:58.880
on the stakeholder committee.

1164
01:02:59.240 --> 01:03:03.400
I really appreciate these last four meetings that they've had.

1165
01:03:03.440 --> 01:03:04.842
It's been very, very informative.

1166
01:03:04.842 --> 01:03:05.519
I've been on the.

1167
01:03:05.600 --> 01:03:09.320
Since the very, very first startup and all.

1168
01:03:09.400 --> 01:03:13.685
I think you're talking about doing a demonstration project ...

1169
01:03:13.685 --> 01:03:17.370
sort of would be useful because I think sometimes if ...

1170
01:03:17.370 --> 01:03:20.798
it's done locally, I realize it was in St. Louis.

1171
01:03:20.880 --> 01:03:23.160
That's close enough, but I think it was done locally.

1172
01:03:23.200 --> 01:03:25.200
People might believe it more.

1173
01:03:25.360 --> 01:03:27.979
And I also want to say, I think living on the hinks ...

1174
01:03:27.979 --> 01:03:29.943
end, certain amount of disturbance ...

1175
01:03:29.943 --> 01:03:31.645
should be also addressed, too,

1176
01:03:31.645 --> 01:03:32.692
because, you know,

1177
01:03:32.692 --> 01:03:35.835
every time they want to put in a big trail that's concrete,

1178
01:03:35.835 --> 01:03:37.275
they disturb the Hinkson.

1179
01:03:37.680 --> 01:03:39.800
Now they're going to, you know,

1180
01:03:39.800 --> 01:03:41.920
redo the so called flat branch.

1181
01:03:43.160 --> 01:03:44.735
Flat branch. As far as I'm concerned,

1182
01:03:44.735 --> 01:03:46.615
it's probably pretty well almost been dead,

1183
01:03:46.615 --> 01:03:48.038
a dead stream for such a long time.

1184
01:03:48.160 --> 01:03:51.080
Now they're going to take off the concrete and try to make it look.

1185
01:03:51.200 --> 01:03:53.974
Look nicer, whether or not that actually ...

1186
01:03:53.974 --> 01:03:55.279
gets fixed enough.

1187
01:03:55.360 --> 01:03:56.062
And that's, you know,

1188
01:03:56.062 --> 01:03:56.920
feeding into the Hinkson.

1189
01:03:56.960 --> 01:04:00.844
So I think we should also not only just worry about ...

1190
01:04:00.844 --> 01:04:02.359
chemicals as much.

1191
01:04:02.640 --> 01:04:04.320
Chemicals is a huge thing.

1192
01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:07.649
A lot of education could be important for people who ...

1193
01:04:07.649 --> 01:04:08.992
want to put, you know,

1194
01:04:08.992 --> 01:04:11.679
chemicals on their lawns and chemicals on.

1195
01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:14.200
On parking lots and just chemicals in general.

1196
01:04:14.360 --> 01:04:15.505
But I think there's, you know,

1197
01:04:15.505 --> 01:04:17.199
need to kind of also look at the disturbance.

1198
01:04:17.240 --> 01:04:18.195
And every time, you know,

1199
01:04:18.195 --> 01:04:19.287
oh, we can justify it because ...

1200
01:04:19.287 --> 01:04:20.424
we're going to have a new park,

1201
01:04:20.424 --> 01:04:21.607
we're going to have a new trail,

1202
01:04:21.607 --> 01:04:22.198
we're going to.

1203
01:04:22.200 --> 01:04:23.320
We want to lay concrete here.

1204
01:04:23.320 --> 01:04:24.640
We want to put in a new road.

1205
01:04:24.760 --> 01:04:27.640
We can just disturb the Hinkson anytime we want.  And then.

1206
01:04:27.760 --> 01:04:29.040
And then usually the cam.

1207
01:04:29.160 --> 01:04:31.798
This has been an ongoing problem where the cam will ...

1208
01:04:31.798 --> 01:04:33.242
find out about it, you know,

1209
01:04:33.242 --> 01:04:34.749
maybe a year later, you know,

1210
01:04:34.749 --> 01:04:37.198
the disturbance has already been done by then.

1211
01:04:37.240 --> 01:04:39.160
So just want to add my two cent.

1212
01:04:39.200 --> 01:04:43.107
I really thank everyone for all their work that they've done ...

1213
01:04:43.107 --> 01:04:44.279
presenting this.

1214
01:04:44.360 --> 01:04:45.360
Thanks a lot.

1215
01:04:52.520 --> 01:04:55.800
So I would just add one thing to the question about ...

1216
01:04:55.800 --> 01:04:58.600
disturbance, and that is that we can think ...

1217
01:04:58.600 --> 01:05:01.400
about two broad classes of disturbances.

1218
01:05:01.520 --> 01:05:05.343
One would be an episode you put in a bridge crossing,

1219
01:05:05.343 --> 01:05:08.455
and inevitably during the construction,

1220
01:05:08.455 --> 01:05:11.478
you're going to get disturbance and some ...

1221
01:05:11.478 --> 01:05:13.078
release of sediment.

1222
01:05:13.800 --> 01:05:18.134
But then the episode is over and the stream then reworks ...

1223
01:05:18.134 --> 01:05:20.395
itself, and eventually that ...

1224
01:05:20.395 --> 01:05:25.200
disturbance dissipates versus what ecologists call a press ...

1225
01:05:25.200 --> 01:05:29.157
disturbance, which is a persistent disturbance.

1226
01:05:29.320 --> 01:05:31.352
And that happens, for example,

1227
01:05:31.352 --> 01:05:34.792
when you have impervious area and then previous area ...

1228
01:05:34.792 --> 01:05:36.199
increases over time.

1229
01:05:37.240 --> 01:05:40.280
And it's not like going away, it just stays.

1230
01:05:40.320 --> 01:05:43.807
Now you're hydrologic disturbance stays at that high ...

1231
01:05:43.807 --> 01:05:46.519
level and it doesn't dissipate over time.

1232
01:05:47.520 --> 01:05:51.111
And that's sort of the way the screen ecologist looks at ...

1233
01:05:51.111 --> 01:05:53.999
those two different kinds of disturbances.

1234
01:06:21.120 --> 01:06:22.720
All right, does anyone else have any ...

1235
01:06:22.720 --> 01:06:24.160
questions that they like to ask?

1236
01:06:24.200 --> 01:06:26.880
I think that there's been some great discussion.  So far.

1237
01:06:34.240 --> 01:06:36.560
Any last closing statements, Rob or Tim?

1238
01:06:40.920 --> 01:06:41.723
Oh, this is Rob.

1239
01:06:41.723 --> 01:06:43.639
I'm pretty much talked out right now.

1240
01:06:43.760 --> 01:06:46.600
This is my third webinar of the day.

1241
01:06:46.960 --> 01:06:50.880
But I really do appreciate the folks who attended this.

1242
01:06:50.960 --> 01:06:53.880
I appreciate the interest in Hinkson Creek science.

1243
01:06:54.920 --> 01:06:56.560
Yeah, this is Tim Riley.

1244
01:06:57.800 --> 01:06:59.240
Same.  Same here.

1245
01:06:59.320 --> 01:07:01.142
And on behalf of the science team,

1246
01:07:01.142 --> 01:07:03.679
I know everyone appreciates your attendance.

1247
01:07:03.840 --> 01:07:05.400
There is one thing.

1248
01:07:07.720 --> 01:07:09.813
This is a little bit of a difficult one,

1249
01:07:09.813 --> 01:07:12.822
but I believe Erin asked, and if you're still on Erin,

1250
01:07:12.822 --> 01:07:15.046
you know, all the things that the city and ...

1251
01:07:15.046 --> 01:07:18.055
the county have done and the university with respect to ...

1252
01:07:18.055 --> 01:07:18.970
BMP's, you know,

1253
01:07:18.970 --> 01:07:20.278
are they doing any good?

1254
01:07:20.400 --> 01:07:22.440
This is one of those difficult issues.

1255
01:07:23.040 --> 01:07:24.800
Certainly you, you know, some of.

1256
01:07:24.880 --> 01:07:28.883
A lot of those BMP's are certainly helping,

1257
01:07:28.883 --> 01:07:33.887
but it's so hard to sort out BMP's that the science team ...

1258
01:07:33.887 --> 01:07:39.558
is very careful, let alone on what's the cause of impairment.

1259
01:07:39.720 --> 01:07:42.704
But very careful about the recommendations because ...

1260
01:07:42.704 --> 01:07:44.399
we understand there's a cost.

1261
01:07:44.680 --> 01:07:48.480
So yes, those BMP's are doing.

1262
01:07:48.600 --> 01:07:50.960
Doing good things, but can I prove it?

1263
01:07:51.040 --> 01:07:52.512
No, they're very,

1264
01:07:52.512 --> 01:07:54.279
very hard to sort out.

1265
01:07:54.280 --> 01:07:56.735
And Erin, I'm not telling you anything,

1266
01:07:56.735 --> 01:07:59.839
but I thought I would offer her some encouragement.

1267
01:07:59.880 --> 01:08:02.400
So that's about all I had.

1268
01:08:03.960 --> 01:08:05.240
I appreciate that, Tim.

1269
01:08:05.320 --> 01:08:05.985
Yeah, I mean,

1270
01:08:05.985 --> 01:08:07.559
I think this is really helpful.

1271
01:08:07.640 --> 01:08:12.976
And I think there's quite a few things that the action team ...

1272
01:08:12.976 --> 01:08:15.199
can talk about from the.

1273
01:08:15.320 --> 01:08:18.040
Every one of these webinars we've had.

1274
01:08:18.120 --> 01:08:21.392
I think we've kind of got an item we can discuss and,

1275
01:08:21.392 --> 01:08:24.119
you know, just try to keep moving forward.

1276
01:08:24.200 --> 01:08:27.476
Improving the creek, I think it was at the beginning ...

1277
01:08:27.476 --> 01:08:28.999
of either yours or robs.

1278
01:08:29.040 --> 01:08:32.040
You know, there's no smoking gun.

1279
01:08:32.480 --> 01:08:34.520
I think we've known that for a little while now.

1280
01:08:34.640 --> 01:08:39.050
And we're just going to have to keep plugging away at,

1281
01:08:39.050 --> 01:08:43.159
you know, implementing solutions as best we can.

1282
01:08:43.480 --> 01:08:50.400
Salt is going to be a difficult one because driver safety is so important.

1283
01:08:50.800 --> 01:08:52.112
But I think, you know,

1284
01:08:52.112 --> 01:08:55.174
I think if we can do an educational campaign and try ...

1285
01:08:55.174 --> 01:08:58.455
to figure out something on the private side of things,

1286
01:08:58.455 --> 01:09:00.715
some sort of incentive or something,

1287
01:09:00.715 --> 01:09:01.517
I mean, that.

1288
01:09:01.600 --> 01:09:06.132
I think that would be good, but that'll take some time to,

1289
01:09:06.132 --> 01:09:08.928
I think, evaluate and try to come up ...

1290
01:09:08.928 --> 01:09:14.039
with a plausible solution that everybody can live with as well.

1291
01:09:14.920 --> 01:09:15.731
But, you know,

1292
01:09:15.731 --> 01:09:17.895
like I said, in all the other webinars,

1293
01:09:17.895 --> 01:09:20.194
there were items that, as an action team,

1294
01:09:20.194 --> 01:09:21.478
I think we can discuss.

1295
01:09:21.600 --> 01:09:24.560
And so that's what we will do on our side.

1296
01:09:24.640 --> 01:09:29.960
And we definitely appreciate everybody's input as well on all this.

1297
01:09:30.480 --> 01:09:31.680
Yeah, a lot to think about.

1298
01:09:31.720 --> 01:09:33.160
There's a lot in that document.

1299
01:09:33.240 --> 01:09:36.320
If you haven't read it yet, I would recommend it.

1300
01:09:36.600 --> 01:09:39.298
Reading it, it's a lot of information that's ...

1301
01:09:39.298 --> 01:09:40.319
distilled down.

1302
01:09:41.400 --> 01:09:44.115
Many thanks to the science team and a lot of thanks to ...

1303
01:09:44.115 --> 01:09:46.388
Rob Jacobson, who put a lot of effort and his ...

1304
01:09:46.388 --> 01:09:47.398
own time into that.

1305
01:09:47.480 --> 01:09:50.200
So that's about all I had.

1306
01:09:50.760 --> 01:09:53.360
We appreciate it.  Absolutely.

1307
01:09:53.360 --> 01:09:55.880
The science team has done a lot of work.

1308
01:09:56.040 --> 01:09:58.415
You know, like Dee was surprised that ...

1309
01:09:58.415 --> 01:10:00.714
they were, that you're volunteers,

1310
01:10:00.714 --> 01:10:03.626
and I think as volunteers, you guys have done a ...

1311
01:10:03.626 --> 01:10:06.078
commendable amount of work, for sure.

1312
01:10:06.280 --> 01:10:08.071
Well, and to be fair,

1313
01:10:08.071 --> 01:10:10.600
so I am a state employee. Yes.

1314
01:10:10.600 --> 01:10:11.759
I am not. I am.

1315
01:10:11.880 --> 01:10:15.816
Maybe volunteering for me would not be completely ...

1316
01:10:15.816 --> 01:10:17.315
accurate, but yes,

1317
01:10:17.315 --> 01:10:20.314
I have put some of my own time into this,

1318
01:10:20.314 --> 01:10:24.718
but a lot of the others are putting their own time into it.

1319
01:10:40.920 --> 01:10:43.040
So this is Paul Blanchard from the science team.

1320
01:10:43.080 --> 01:10:46.814
I just wanted to throw out a couple other things for ...

1321
01:10:46.814 --> 01:10:50.904
people to think about with regard to the chloride issue ...

1322
01:10:50.904 --> 01:10:55.261
and road salt and parking lot salt is some of the things that ...

1323
01:10:55.261 --> 01:10:59.618
other communities have dealt with around the country have ...

1324
01:10:59.618 --> 01:11:04.419
been questions of certification of applicators or figuring out ...

1325
01:11:04.419 --> 01:11:07.797
ways of having best management practices and ...

1326
01:11:07.797 --> 01:11:09.397
limiting liability.

1327
01:11:10.000 --> 01:11:13.008
So those are things that aren't really science,

1328
01:11:13.008 --> 01:11:16.391
but they're things that might want to be considered as ...

1329
01:11:16.391 --> 01:11:19.399
everyone's thinking about this going forward.

1330
01:11:46.960 --> 01:11:49.431
All right, unless there's any final ...

1331
01:11:49.431 --> 01:11:52.478
questions, I think that this is a nice little ...

1332
01:11:52.478 --> 01:11:54.949
ending, and I'd like to thank you all ...

1333
01:11:54.949 --> 01:11:56.678
for your presentations.

1334
01:11:57.280 --> 01:11:59.720
Do you want to have anything before I end the meeting?

1335
01:12:03.560 --> 01:12:05.200
Thanks for organizing, Michele.

1336
01:12:05.360 --> 01:12:06.520
Oh, team effort.

1337
01:12:06.600 --> 01:12:08.520
Thank you guys all for your help as well.

1338
01:12:11.400 --> 01:12:12.536
Yeah, much appreciated.

1339
01:12:12.536 --> 01:12:14.159
Have a nice day. It's beautiful out.

1340
01:12:14.240 --> 01:12:15.800
Yeah, go enjoy the sunshine.

1341
01:12:15.880 --> 01:12:17.880
Maybe go spend some time on the Hinkson as well.

1342
01:12:17.960 --> 01:12:19.920
It's beautiful.  Yep.

1343
01:12:20.520 --> 01:12:22.364
Have a good night. See y'all.

1344
01:12:22.364 --> 01:12:23.439
Bye, everybody.